Talk:Mary, mother of Jesus

Biographical Information

Like all other real historical persons, "Mary, the mother of Jesus" should have a biographical section which states her date of birth and death, as any other real historical person. And if no, there should be a section on any history or controversy about this. 2601:18F:E80:894B:612E:BF10:BF5C:2EA4 (talk) 12:32, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

There's no "controversy" - we just don't know either (as with many people who lived this long ago). Johnbod (talk) 12:51, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Mary's age when giving birth to Jesus

@Sinclairian you have reverted both of my edits which suggest that Mary was 16 when giving birth to Jesus, the problem with your reverts is that you didn't change the citation in any way you just kept it the way it was before the edit. The Citation was: "According to the the apocryphal Gospel of James, Mary was approximately 13–14 years old when giving birth to Jesus.", this is wrong and I cited that in my edit and quoted that she was 16 when having Jesus as it says in chapter 12 of the Gospel of James: "And she remained three months with Elizabeth; and day by day she grew bigger. And Mary being afraid, went away to her own house, and hid herself from the sons of Israel. And she was sixteen years old when these mysteries happened." [1] In fact the citation had this article: [2] which doesn't say that according to the Gospel of James she was 14 but according to other apocryphal writings, however that same source says this about them: It will not be without interest to recall here, unreliable though they are, the lengthy stories concerning St. Joseph's marriage contained in the apocryphal writings. The same source the citation uses says the apocryphal writings which state that Mary was 14 here are unreliable so they shouldn't be used to know Mary's age when giving birth to Jesus. The second problem here is that if she really was 14 why did Luke the Evangelist call her a woman in Luke 1:42? The Third problem here is that the citation also uses the Jewish customs surrounding marriage at the time, however Michael Satlow states that In Palestine, men married at around thirty to women who were ten or fifteen years younger.[3] So the age of consummation would be 15 to 20 years old so its very possible using this that Mary would be 16 at the Annunciation. Olek Novy (talk) 20:01, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

I think everyone is getting confused, the sources say that Mary was engaged to Joseph between the ages of 12 and 14. Then the sources say that Mary would become pregnant at the age of 16, and therefore would give birth at the age of 17. One thing was the age at which Mary was engaged to Joseph and another thing was the age at which Mary gave birth. I'm going to correct what you say about Mary giving birth between the ages of 13 and 14, which no source says. It says that she got engaged at that age, which is different.Rafaelosornio (talk) 23:38, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

The catholic encyclopedia said the Mary was engaged at 12-14, but the annunciation occur two years later.

The Catholic Encyclopedia doesn’t say Mary was early teens when she conceived. Read further people it’s under marriage in the same paragraph https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm?fb_comment_id=10150145970158037_10154111787908037

“and two years later the Annunciation took place.” StillStill (talk) 13:03, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry that reply was for someone else. Ignore it. StillStill (talk) 13:12, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

The Apocrypha really shouldn't even be considered the source of this. The article has scholarly guesses about how old Mary was when she had Jesus, which are the sources that should matter, and as one can see, there are varying opinions on the matter. They even include the possibility that she was in her twenties, as mentioned, and there is no reason why the youngest guessed age should be chosen as the truth over the others. Finncle (talk) 06:38, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

The catholic encyclopedia said the Mary was engaged at 12-14, but the annunciation occur two years later.

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm?fb_comment_id=10150145970158037_10154111787908037 StillStill (talk) 13:12, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

From the article itself, in the Annunciation section: "Jewish girls were considered marriageable at the age of twelve years and six months, though the actual age of the bride varied with circumstances. The marriage was preceded by the betrothal, after which the bride legally belonged to the bridegroom, though she did not live with him till about a year later, when the marriage was celebrated." By this timeline, Mary was betrothed at 11 and a half, and did not cohabitate until a year had passed, at which point the Annunciation happened, since if the marriage had already been "celebrated" then she wouldn't have been a virgin anymore. Pregnancy takes 9 months; Mary would have been 13 or 14 at the time she gave birth. See also that Satlow claims men at 30 would marry women up to 15 years younger, meaning an age of 15 still fits the approximate range given, and that even this doesn't really matter because Joseph was supposedly 90 when he married Mary and thus the model doesn't even necessarily apply to him. Betrothal at ages 11/12, marriage at ages 12/13, childbirth at ages 13/14. Luke calling Mary a "woman" is also irrelevant as, again, in the 1st centuries BC/AD, a 13 year old boy was considered a "man" and a 12 year old girl was considered a "woman". Sinclairian (talk) 16:25, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Well, we should really reconsider how much we rely on an article from The Catholic Encyclopedia from 1912. A source over a century old can be outdated. Still, even that part mentions that 'the actual age of the bride varied with circumstances'. The thing was that in practice marriage usually took place at a later age. At least that was the case in someone like Mary's environment, as Amram Tropper's research (2006) has shown, which is referred to in the 'Birth of Jesus' section. According to him: scholars suggest that the average age of first marriage in Palestine and the Western Diaspora was in the late teens or early twenties for women. Finncle (talk) 17:51, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

there's no annunciation section in the article, you get it from here:[4] the Protoevangelion of James does agree that Mary was 12 when married to joseph but states there was no consummation for the first 4 years of the marriage. If we go to the annunciation article, it states that: The opinion that Joseph at the time of the Annunciation was an aged widower and Mary twelve or fifteen years of age, is founded only upon apocryphal documents. [5] "Luke calling Mary a "woman" is also irrelevant as, again, in the 1st centuries BC/AD, a 13 year old boy was considered a "man" and a 12 year old girl was considered a "woman"" In Mark 5:35-42 we have a 12 year old being called a child and not a woman![6] Olek Novy (talk) 20:10, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

there's no annunciation section in the article

Mary, mother of Jesus#Annunciation. Come on now. This is getting ridiculous. Sinclairian (talk) 00:03, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

The Catholic Encyclopedia doesn’t say Mary was early teens when she conceived. Read further people it’s under marriage in the same paragraph https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm?fb_comment_id=10150145970158037_10154111787908037

“and two years later the Annunciation took place.” It’s in the same paragraph where it said she was engaged at 12-14. The gospel of James said in chapter 12 she was 16 when she conceived. StillStill (talk) 13:04, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Everything you say sounds like original research unless you prove with a source that Mary gave birth to Jesus between the ages of 13 and 14. Rafaelosornio (talk) 17:38, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

The sources are in the article. Sinclairian (talk) 19:22, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

The source given does not say that Mary gave birth between the ages of 13 and 14, this is original research, avoid an editing war or change the source that states what you say, because it seems that everything is your assumptions without any source to support it.Rafaelosornio (talk) 20:03, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Exactly. It said she was 12-14 when she engaged, but the annacution happens two years later. StillStill (talk) 13:07, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

So what should be done with the year of birth in the information box? We can't really know it. Now it is still partly based on weak argumentation based on the Apocrypha, which should not even be considered to be a source for it, and partly on the cultural customs, which include the possibility that she was several years older at the time of her betrothal than is now estimated in it. -Finncle (talk) 17:59, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Okay but I think it should be know that the Apocrypha isn’t reliable and Mary may have been older. Maybe some people are unaware that those books aren’t reliable. StillStill (talk) 13:06, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

I edited the birth year based on this discussion to include more variation in the estimates. Finncle (talk) 12:21, 2 February 2025 (UTC)

Consensus was never reached on this subject – it’d be remiss to change the article based on it. I’m going to revert for the time being. Sinclairian (talk) 13:27, 3 February 2025 (UTC)

This article is contradictory as it stands. In the section discussing later writings of Mary's age, it clealry distinguishes between her betrothal age (12-14) and her age at pregnancy, which says: "Her age during her pregnancy has varied up to 17 in apocryphal sources." The citation for her age must line up with that, because right now it implies that she gave birth to Jesus immediately after her betrothal. This is not accurate to the very source cited. This can easily be reconciled with an edit suggesting a span of time for her date of birth (between 20BC and 18BC, for example). As it stands, we cannot claim that her date of birth WAS 18BC based on the source cited. Lack of consensus is not the issue -- lack of consistency within the article is. AnonymousEditor101 (talk) 21:28, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

I added an additional source in the interim to support the date in the infobox. Sinclairian (talk) 21:38, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

I corrected the infobox as well as the year. It should stay this way until we have a source other than the Gospel of James to use, because the Gospel of James reads as follows: "And [Mary] spent three months with Elizabeth. And day by day, her womb grew larger, and Mary was afraid. She went to her house and hid herself from the people of Israel. She was sixteen years old when these mysteries happened to her." (James 12:3) I am open to changing this if other sources can be found suggesting a different date, but the present citation is to the gospel of James and that demands 20BC as her approximate birth year. Later, I may edit the Later Writings section to reflect this key piece of the Gospel of James.AnonymousEditor101 (talk) 06:02, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

We have several other sources besides James, and you seem to have completely ignored the message you were replying to which explicitly stated that a new source was added to support the 18 BC date. I'm changing it back. Sinclairian (talk) 15:09, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

I have added yet another two new scholarly sources to support the c. 18 BC date. Sinclairian (talk) 16:20, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

I took the time to read your new sources. Here's what the Meier piece says: "...two independent streams of tradition holding the general view that Mary survived into the early days of the Church. Granted that a young Jewish girl would be espoused around the age of twelve or thirteen, there is nothing unlikely in this. If Jesus was around thirty-five when he was crucified, Mary would be around forty-eight." It also says, in your second page cited: "If it be granted that she would have been about fourteen years old when Jesus was bom, and if it be granted that she was robust enough to bear at least six other children, 9 there is nothing improbable about Mary’s surviving Jesus. She would have been roughly forty-eight to fifty years old at the time of his crucifixion." This still dates her birth to 17-19BC. Your next citation suggests a similar idea: "Mary had other competent sons and also because she was unlikely to have been more than 50 years of age when Jesus died." This now suggests 19BC or earlier. However, in the notes it bases this solely on her age at marriage -- not at birth. The only citation that actually asserts an age for her during pregnancy itself (instead of assuming that is the same as her age as betrothal) is the apocryphal gospel of James. In light of that, our best option is to do what the page for Jesus did -- a span. Something like 20-18BC should cover it. This also accounts for the competing accounts on the date of Jesus' birth (which the page cites as 6-4BC).AnonymousEditor101 (talk) 18:21, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

I support the use of a span. I had used it in my previous edit too (which was reverted for lack of consensus), because there is no one definite estimate, but instead there are conflicting opinions. Nevertheless, even those years still wouldn't really cover it, because the view that the marriage could have been contracted up to the twenties never ceased to exist. Finncle (talk) 18:45, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

Two things. First, you are aware that circa, as in c. 18 BC, indicates an uncertain date range, right? 19–17 BC is c. 18 BC.

Secondly, the Handbook does not suggest 19 BC or earlier at all. 33 - 50 = -17, that is, 17 BC – which again, is covered by "c. 18 BC" and not by the span you propose. Sinclairian (talk) 18:46, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

Sinclairian while you are certainly correct that circa can refer to an approximate date, it is not adequate when we are citing conflicting sources and when Jesus' birth itself is under significant debate. I recommend reading so you understand why it's placed in a span (instead of circa) on Jesus' page. Our infobox clearly ties Mary's birth directly to Jesus' date of birth, so it is inconsistent to suggest a single date for hers while his has a span. Yes, your handbook implies the impossibility of a date earlier...but that is one source. You cannot elevate that source over the others, particularly when we're still citing the gospel of James -- and you're ignoring that your source did not give any definitive date for tbe birth of Jesus. We have to use a span not because it's approximate, but because it's disputed. At the very least, a span is necessary to line up with the span for Jesus' life. That would suggest 18-20 at minimum. AnonymousEditor101 (talk) 19:26, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 October 2024

The § New Testament section cites a mention of Mary in Matthew 2:12, but the reference is actually in verse 11.

Please edit the two references to Matthew 2:12 to 2:11, thus:—

−

*The [[Gospel of Matthew]] mentions her by name five times, four of these (1:16, 18, 20: 2:12)<ref>{{Bibleverse|Matthew|1:16–2:12}}</ref> in the infancy narrative and only once (Matthew 13:55)<ref>{{Bibleverse|Matthew|13:55}}</ref> outside the infancy narrative.

+

*The [[Gospel of Matthew]] mentions her by name five times, four of these (1:16, 18, 20: 2:11)<ref>{{Bibleverse|Matthew|1:16–2:11}}</ref> in the infancy narrative and only once (Matthew 13:55)<ref>{{Bibleverse|Matthew|13:55}}</ref> outside the infancy narrative.

Thank you. 104.246.217.171 (talk) 03:50, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

 Done Anon126 (notify me of responses! / talk / contribs) 06:47, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 December 2024

Mary was Palestinian but religion is Jewish.

Source: https://theconversation.com/was-jesus-palestinian-243943 Deemazing (talk) 06:34, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Remsense ‥ 论 06:38, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Mother of God

The synoptic gospels make it clear that Jesus is God which therefore makes it clear that Mary is the Mother of God. This is not a matter of high debate as all major traditions including but not exclusive to Protestant and Latin traditions in the West and Byzantine, Antiochine, and Alexandrian traditions in the East hold Mary as the Mother of God even if to a lesser extent. Her description should say “The synoptic Gospels name Mary as the Mother of God” rather than “The synoptic Gospels name Mary as the mother of Jesus.” Fadiantabeel (talk) 00:49, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

The term Theotokos has its own article. Dimadick (talk) 12:25, 13 December 2024 (UTC)